Hot Take C8 Edition

"Tripper" (tripe46) 07/19/2019 at 13:25 • Filed to: None

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I have loved the idea of mid engined Vette since the first time I heard/saw it mentioned. Then General Motors goes and releases one! It looks amazing, it probably sounds amazing and the asking price is the most reasonable thing I have heard all day!

I have spent all morning up until about 3 minutes ago just oogling this car. That is because I found out via another thread on Oppo saying that it won’t ever be available with 3 pedals! That thought never crossed my mind...”It’s a Corvette, of course you’ll be able to get it with a manual.” I even had this discussion with a colleague earlier.

Now I’m like:

In all seriousness I don’t hate the car, but I’ve gone from “I’mma get that!” to “I don’t care about that thing I cared so much about a few minutes ago.”

Please spare me the following:

Most Corvettes are manuals (so are most 911 turbos, you can still get one of them with a manual)

Manuals are stupid (wrong)

This is too much car for a manual (wrong)

Get with the times... (oh you mean the times where all cars are beige buicks except a handful, I’m all set )

I’v bought two brand new cars with manuals in the past two years. What have I not done car gods!?

Decay buys too many beaters > Tripper 07/19/2019 at 13:31

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But for real. 100% agree

gettingoldercarguy > Tripper 07/19/2019 at 13:32

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The reasons for the auto only make sense.  And when you have an 80% take rate, it's a hard business case with just that in mind.  I like it and would love it with the dct.

HondoyotaE38: A Japanese and German Collab...wait a minute > Tripper 07/19/2019 at 13:32

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As BM2 said in  another thread , manuals are overrated as hell. I couldn’t care less that this doesn’t have one, it’s perfect for what it is at it’s price point and you cannot change my mind. I absolutely love this car and everything about it almost unreasonably.

way2blu does a rev update > Tripper 07/19/2019 at 13:32

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If Chevy doesn’t move on a manual, Oppo oughta crowd-fund the manufacture of  manual swap kits for C8s. Dead serious. This car is too good for auto-only.

Tripper > gettingoldercarguy 07/19/2019 at 13:35

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Yea I just like driving. The S3 was cool and all but it did all the driving.

415s30 W123TSXWaggoIIIIIIo ( •_•))°) > Tripper 07/19/2019 at 13:36

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Really, I didn’t consider that. I am not really interested in it. Someone commented that it looks like a Camaro shoved through an F430 Play Doh mold, and that summed up my feelings.  

DucST3-Red-1Liter-Standing-By > Tripper 07/19/2019 at 13:37

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R&T had a good Q and A with the engineers. The biggest problem is the steering column is fighting for space with the pedal box due to the front wheels being so much closer to the cabin. 3 pedals would have made it too cramped

HFV has no HFV. But somehow has 2 motorcycles > way2blu does a rev update 07/19/2019 at 13:38

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Forget Area 51, we gonna march on GM head quarters. I’d like find the head  of their styling department, and put his/her head on a pike. 

gettingoldercarguy > Tripper 07/19/2019 at 13:38

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Yeah,I love shifting in  my wrx and I miss it when I drive an auto box.  That being said I think the c8 will offer more than enough driver involvement for me.

Arrivederci > gettingoldercarguy 07/19/2019 at 13:38

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I think this has to be the reasoning, unfortunately. When you previously had an 80% take rate on the auto, why not put the best auto you can in it (dual clutch) that also maximizes performance?

I’d have preferred a manual despite it being slower too, but I’m not gonna fault GM for making it auto-only. (I can’t believe I just said that).

Decay buys too many beaters > DucST3-Red-1Liter-Standing-By 07/19/2019 at 13:39

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What the hell kind of engineer complains about packaging constraints in a clean sheet design?

Textured Soy Protein > Tripper 07/19/2019 at 13:39

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I like rowing my own plenty but in a car with this level of capability I’m ok with a DCT, especially since there  were apparently some packaging concerns with adding a manual. 

Tripper > 415s30 W123TSXWaggoIIIIIIo ( •_•))°) 07/19/2019 at 13:40

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Hahaha truth, however I do still like the aesthetics minus the back end

HFV has no HFV. But somehow has 2 motorcycles > HondoyotaE38: A Japanese and German Collab...wait a minute 07/19/2019 at 13:40

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Last night I was on the Freeway and some one challenged me to some fun.

The down shift to 3rd, and bang shift into 4th made my whole day better.

Manuals are not over rated. If you don’t like them you’re probably just bad it them. 

Snuze: Needs another Swede > Tripper 07/19/2019 at 13:41

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Hot take on your hot take: Buick has their best product lineup in years and is neither beige nor boring.

Daily Drives a Dragon - One Last Lap > way2blu does a rev update 07/19/2019 at 13:41

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The last manual transaxle for a longitudinally mounted mid-engine car was from the Gallardo though right? Maybe you could make a Subaru box handle the power but it probably wouldn't. 

Milky > gettingoldercarguy 07/19/2019 at 13:43

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Was curious about that take rate, apparently it was as high as 40% in 2014.  I’d assume z06/zr1s having over 600hp change the manual rate.  But a considerable amount of C7s have a manual.  

SPAMBot - Horse Doctor > Tripper 07/19/2019 at 13:43

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I love manuals but I’m ok with this being DCT only. If I was given the choice, I’d still pick the 3rd pedal, but if I have two mid-engined v8 sports cars, I am totally fine with one being complete old school, and the other being fully high tech.

Tripper > HondoyotaE38: A Japanese and German Collab...wait a minute 07/19/2019 at 13:43

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I wasn’t trying to change anyone’s mind, go buy one. This post is because my interest level went from 100 to 0 on a car I really thought I’d own.

Automatics are bunk they completely take away from the driving experience. The only car I enjoyed in auto was a Ferrari 612 and I’m pretty sure I only love that because it was a V12 Ferrari.

CompactLuxuryFan > Tripper 07/19/2019 at 13:43

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It seems like they left themselves open to many options with the way they engineered the platform. Unfortunately, I’d say a manual is only likely as a limited edition, really expensive run, like the 911R. AWD and RWD hybrids, hell even full electric are more likely to make it to market first. It’s just the Corvette getting with the times.

Luckily GM still makes the Camaro, which was probably getting too close to the Corvette anyway. C7s are still plentiful and widely available. If their prices tank that would be a great time to go get one. If not, I can still somehow see the C7 platform living on in some shape or form. GM throwing everything the front-engine Corvette had going in the trash would be a shame.

way2blu does a rev update > Daily Drives a Dragon - One Last Lap 07/19/2019 at 13:43

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A built Subie ‘box is 100% the best bet for that. Tons of aftermarket parts to beef them up.

DaftRyosuke - So Long and Thanks for All the Fish! > Tripper 07/19/2019 at 13:44

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Tripper > SPAMBot - Horse Doctor 07/19/2019 at 13:44

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I thought that too when I test drove then bought my S3. For the first little while I liked it, then the novelty wore off and I just kept justifying it to myself until I eventually sold it.

gettingoldercarguy > Milky 07/19/2019 at 13:45

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https://www.roadandtrack.com/new-cars/future-cars/a28433801/c8-corvette-mid-engine-engineering-design-interview/

R&T : But wasn’t the C7 one of the highest-selling manual cars?

TJ: Absolute volume? Pretty high. But our manual-trans volume’s gone way down. Even cars like a Z06 that historically have been only manual, as soon as we offer the automatic, it goes up to what, 80 percent [auto]? Something like that.

CobraJoe > gettingoldercarguy 07/19/2019 at 13:47

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The reasons for the auto only make sense. And when you have an 80% take rate, it’s a hard business case with just that in mind. I like it and would love it with the dct.

I’m not so sure that the “Auto only” case does make sense.

Look at all of the sports cars available today. Almost everything under the $100k mark has a manual available in some trim level . The notable exceptions are the Supra (Too new to really make a case out of), the 4c (which is low production, but selling horribly), and... um... that might be it.

I think it’s a bit of a “halo version of the halo car” thing going on. It’s difficult to be considered a true performance car without the manual option, and it’s harder to sell the image of the true driver’s car without the perception of being a true driver’s car.

I’d bet there’s a pretty large subgroup of people out there who love the idea of driving a manual sports car, but aren’t ready for the everyday experience of driving a manual sports car.

Tripper > Snuze: Needs another Swede 07/19/2019 at 13:47

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Really? Looks beige and boring to me with a splash of red.

UserNotFound > Tripper 07/19/2019 at 13:49

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Most Corvettes aren’t manuals and this is too much car for a manual anyway. You need to get with the times - manuals are stupid now.

412GTI > Tripper 07/19/2019 at 13:49

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I feel no different that it’s DCT only. It would’ve been really cool to see them include a manual, but it seems packaging was a big factor in this decision. 

Tripper > UserNotFound 07/19/2019 at 13:50

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Haha I respect this

gettingoldercarguy > CobraJoe 07/19/2019 at 13:50

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R&T : Did you consider three pedals?

TJ: We started saying, “God, people are gonna be pissed at us if we don’t do a traditional manual. Let’s see if we can do it.” But I was talking about the pedal box and how close it comes to the wheel. Having space for that third pedal pinches right up against where the tire is. If you wanted to do that, you’d have to put all the pedals so close together, it’s less than ideal ergonomics.

HC: And the interior guys were excited, too, with how [being automatic only] enabled them to deal with the design.

Plus, almost i f not all mid engine exotics are auto only cars.

E90M3 > HondoyotaE38: A Japanese and German Collab...wait a minute 07/19/2019 at 13:50

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Nope, as far as speed and lap times manuals are not as good as a DCT or a modern auto. As far as sensation of driving and enjoyment, the manual is better. Having owned both an auto car and manual car with the same engine, I can tell you I far more enjoy the one with the manual. It’s the reason that the take rate on the GT3 is 2:1 in favor of the manual. It’s about the sensation and experience and not the time. 

facw > Milky 07/19/2019 at 13:51

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Only 23 Percent of 2016 Chevrolet Corvettes Have Manual Transmissions

And it sounds like it’s only gotten lower...

E90M3 > way2blu does a rev update 07/19/2019 at 13:51

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I feel like this might be a similar situation to the GT3, it’ll get added at some point. 

SPAMBot - Horse Doctor > Tripper 07/19/2019 at 13:51

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I could see that. IMO, it’s harder to feel like the car is an extension of you without a clutch. It depends on the car, though. The rental ND I had with the auto, I never felt like it was getting in the way of my fun. The steering an chassis made up for lack of involvement with the transmission. Plus, I was a lot more willing to up and downshift before and after corners with the paddles. In my car, I would have just left it in third most of the time. I had a good time, but I can see where you are coming from.

A tangent: I drove my friend’s car to work yesterday, and it was actually really nice to have an auto in traffic on my way home. I was mentally exhausted and removing one thing off my mind was appreciated. I’m not team auto after that, but wow, I get where people are coming from.

ITA97, now with more Jag @ opposite-lock.com > Tripper 07/19/2019 at 13:52

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I’ll raise a few counter points:

Actually, most corvettes are not manuals and haven’t been. The manual take rate on the C4 was about 25%, and I recall that figure has stayed similar up to present generations. If you exclude Z06 type flavors , the manual take rate drops to very, very little. Today, in 2019, I can’t fathom why a manufacturer would develop a new manual box for a mid-engine car if they didn’t already have one on the shelf, say Porsche style.

Also, and with the preface the I love, LOVE, a manual transmission as much as the next oppo/gearhead/racer, I’ll also be the first to admit they’re a technical problem that has been solved. I’ve driven some proper DCT transmissions, and they’re simply a superior solution. I’m better than the average nut behind the wheel on the racetrack, and I can’t come close to doing what a PDK box can. Did it make me a bit wistful for how satisfying a perfectly executed heel-toe downshift under threshold braking after nailing the brake point coming into turn one at my local track would’ve been in that Boxter S? Sure, but the future is otherwise so very good. We live in a glorious time automotive performance. After all, we’re not going to run out of spec miatas or old IT cars anytime to soon to scratch that old itch.

UserNotFound > Tripper 07/19/2019 at 13:53

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BRB going to go look at a RHD 5spd 3 door 92 Pajero diesel for my wife now.

Tripper > 412GTI 07/19/2019 at 13:53

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Yea and I’m not blaming them I’m just disappointed

CobraJoe > HondoyotaE38: A Japanese and German Collab...wait a minute 07/19/2019 at 13:54

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As BM2 said in another thread, manuals are overrated as hell. I couldn’t care less that this doesn’t have one, it’s perfect for what it is at it’s price point and you cannot change my mind. I absolutely love this car and everything about it almost unreasonably.

I disagree completely about manuals being overrated. I have yet to experience a vehicle where I wished it was an automatic instead of a manual. (The closest is an 05 Legacy GT, but that was more because I hated how the engine delivered the power. I t could be 10 times better with a proper auto, but it would have been 1000 times better with a NA V8 with similar power figures).

Feel free to love it as it is, you can get the auto.  Personally, I know I can never be happy without shifting it myself, and I’d never be willing to make a $60k commitment without a manual option.  

415s30 W123TSXWaggoIIIIIIo ( •_•))°) > Tripper 07/19/2019 at 13:55

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I saw plenty of better designs when people were speculating, the back is awful. I think there were lot’s of better design options or at least something to start from . I hate that it reminds me of an F430, which is one of my least favorite Ferraris and the back just looks like a Camaro.

merged-5876237249235911857-hrw8uc > Tripper 07/19/2019 at 13:56

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I feel your pain, but I also am willing to overlook the absence of a manual if it means superior driving dynamics and a relative bargain price.  It would make it more engaging for sure.  But I wouldn’t make it a deal breaker.  But then again, my opinion means bubkis as I won’t be able to justify spending that kind of money on a toy.  But hopefully this helps the c6 market drop ;).  I’ve been driving an auto car for a few years now after selling my S4 6MT and there are days I miss rowing gears, but not as much as I thought I would.   I do pine for a C6 Z06 or a C5 Z06 to play with on the weekends, but if I had the option to go with a brand new MR layout, I think I’d go for it.  I’m glad they built it though.

Milky > gettingoldercarguy 07/19/2019 at 13:59

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That goes along with my point, the old Z06 was 500hp and manual only.

I’m assuming “base” C7 has a high manual take while the speedy bois dont.

gettingoldercarguy > Milky 07/19/2019 at 14:02

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No, as soon as they offer the auto box, manual take rate goes to crap.  I imagine it'd be even worse with a dct transmission compared to that a8 POS.

Milky > facw 07/19/2019 at 14:02

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1 in 4 is still pretty good.  I was wrong about base vs z06 tho.  Looks like half of z06 coupes were manual, that year at least.  

CobraJoe > DucST3-Red-1Liter-Standing-By 07/19/2019 at 14:02

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3 pedals would have made it too cramped

I’m calling BS.

There are many other mid engine RWD cars built with a manual, the C8 isn’t that unique.

I’m betting they picked some parts bin parts to design the interior, and it is making it more difficult to package than it would be with modified parts.  

HondoyotaE38: A Japanese and German Collab...wait a minute > HFV has no HFV. But somehow has 2 motorcycles 07/19/2019 at 14:03

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I never said I don't like manuals or that they're bad, just that they're overrated. Not everything needs a manual, I'm simply pointing that out in this case it's just fine with the auto.

DucST3-Red-1Liter-Standing-By > Decay buys too many beaters 07/19/2019 at 14:03

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I don’t think it’s so much as a redesign would fix it, but rather  to get the proper proportions of a mid engine car, the front wheels are close to the cabin creating the problem. I think it's pretty common in manual rear-mid engine layouts. The old stratos is a good example

HondoyotaE38: A Japanese and German Collab...wait a minute > CobraJoe 07/19/2019 at 14:05

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That's fair. Everyone's entitled to their opinion and I like manuals, don't get me wrong: just that the idea that every car needs a manual, including this one, is ridiculous and is what makes manuals overrated.

DucST3-Red-1Liter-Standing-By > CobraJoe 07/19/2019 at 14:08

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Call BS all you want man, just relaying info. If you don’t like it, don’t buy it. GM probably won’t loose too much sleep over the 5 percent of people.

And have you seen the pics of the interior? Hardly what I would describe as parts bin. And even if it is a parts bin down there, looks like theyre passing the savings onto the customer with the msrp

Tripper > ITA97, now with more Jag @ opposite-lock.com 07/19/2019 at 14:09

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Interesting stats on the manuals. I was shooting from the hip there.

I agree that the good automated manuals are “better” than a standard manual. I too cannot hold a candle to PDK, even the DSG in my S3 was amazing the transmissions themselves are far better than a manual gearbox.

That is my problem. The S3 was awesome, absolutely amazing that a 2l turbo with a super fancy transmission and AWD system can do what that car does. An idiot could drive it fast with one hand. That is because the car is doing it all with its perfect shifts, and various traction control systems.

Even with the M3 parked behind it, I grew tired of the DSG. I get why it’s good for the Corvette but have lost interest.

Tripper > 415s30 W123TSXWaggoIIIIIIo ( •_•))°) 07/19/2019 at 14:10

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Oo yea I like that! F430 is my least favorite too!

gettingoldercarguy > ITA97, now with more Jag @ opposite-lock.com 07/19/2019 at 14:10

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Wonderful counter point!

Decay buys too many beaters > DucST3-Red-1Liter-Standing-By 07/19/2019 at 14:11

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I’m confused by the giant trans tunnel, surely that real estate could have been reallocated 

Tripper > merged-5876237249235911857-hrw8uc 07/19/2019 at 14:12

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Yea like I said I don’t hate the car and probably wouldn’t be a buyer until they begin to show up used anyway . The manual however is a deal breaker for me, after my S3 I probably won’t have another and I loved that car. I just didn’t love driving it.

CobraJoe > gettingoldercarguy 07/19/2019 at 14:13

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If you wanted to do that, you’d have to put all the pedals so close together, it’s less than ideal ergonomics.

Again, this sounds like they didn’t even try. “Oh, it’ll be a bit tight down there, lets just do auto only”.

I’d bet there’s a manual swap going into a C8 within the first year of production, and it’ll be perfectly functional even without the ability to use the original CAD.

Plus, almost if not all mid engine exotics are auto only cars.

The Vette is not a Ferrari, nor a McLaren, nor an Audi R8.  The cheapest mid engine exotic is twice the price.  Even though it’ll compete in performance, it is in a different class.  

gettingoldercarguy > CobraJoe 07/19/2019 at 14:21

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Cool, I hope you're right!

Milky > gettingoldercarguy 07/19/2019 at 14:22

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Looked up 2018 numbers - “For Z06, 72.1% of buyers selected the 8-speed automatic.” Seems worth it to me, esp. since they already know how to make a manual transaxle.

gettingoldercarguy > Milky 07/19/2019 at 14:24

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Cool, hopefully they make it.

HFV has no HFV. But somehow has 2 motorcycles > HondoyotaE38: A Japanese and German Collab...wait a minute 07/19/2019 at 14:26

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But why spend money on a fun car, without the experience of having a manual trans. Hitting a flappy paddle twice  just doesn’t compare.

DucST3-Red-1Liter-Standing-By > Decay buys too many beaters 07/19/2019 at 14:26

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potentially, I’m no expert, but I doubt neither the pedals box or steering column has any parts that could be moved there without some serious (and costly) engineering

Milky > ITA97, now with more Jag @ opposite-lock.com 07/19/2019 at 14:28

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Counter-counter point, they already have a 7spd manual transaxle. The cost needed to adapt it  probably real low  compared to developing a new DCT.

Decay buys too many beaters > DucST3-Red-1Liter-Standing-By 07/19/2019 at 14:30

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If that trans tunnel wasn’t there, which it has no reason to be in a MR layout, they would have tons of space for both a shift linkage and a clutch pedal (GM also has a patent on a clutch by wire which I am tentatively ok with)

http://pdfaiw.uspto.gov/.aiw?PageNum=0&docid=20180252274&IDKey=13DB0F22CA99&HomeUrl=http://appft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser%3FSect1%3DPTO2%2526Sect2%3DHITOFF%2526p%3D1%2526u%3D%25252Fnetahtml%25252FPTO%25252Fsearch-bool.html%2526r%3D39%2526f%3DG%2526l%3D50%2526co1%3DAND%2526d%3DPG01%2526s1%3Dgm.AANM.%2526OS%3DAANM/gm%2526RS%3DAANM/gm

His Stigness > Tripper 07/19/2019 at 14:31

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Anecdotally speaking the manual take rate in my experience sm ogging them is even worse than 25%, but the boomer stereotype is 100%. This week, for instance, a C4 came in. It was an automatic, and the 60 year old white guy with white hair was wearing a fucking Corvette jacket. I had a hard time drinking my coffee because I was laughing so much.

But I smog all the generations and the take rate on manuals is probably well under 10% here (Southern California). 

CobraJoe > HondoyotaE38: A Japanese and German Collab...wait a minute 07/19/2019 at 14:39

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But we’re not talking about putting manuals in luxury SUVs here, we’re talking about a manual in a sports car.

As much as I’d like a new sedan with a manual, I can accept that it wasn’t worth the effort to sell so few with that transmission. But a Corvette? Even the C7 that is favored by retirees has a 1 in 4 take rate of manual transmissions.

Honestly though, it’s not the lack of a manual that really irks me, it’s the statements of “There’s no way it’d work” that really burns me. I can’t stand that sentiment, it’s just a cop out for not wanting to spend the R&D time to design it.

Even though I don’t necessarily believe it, I can accept the “It wouldn’t sell enough” argument.  I cannot accept the “It can’t be done” argument.  

DucST3-Red-1Liter-Standing-By > Decay buys too many beaters 07/19/2019 at 14:45

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I don’t think the shift linkage would be a problem at all, and the clutch by wire might work, but then you’ve still got the problem of the steering column right were the brake pedal would be, so then you run into either moving the brake and clutch to the left and leave the gas out by itself to the right, or you move the brake pedal right and leave the clutch all my its lonesome.

A steering by wire set up might work, because you could get rid of the column, but I don’t know if thats been done before

CobraJoe > DucST3-Red-1Liter-Standing-By 07/19/2019 at 14:46

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I won’t buy it, and I guess I probably couldn’t buy it if it was everything I wished it could be, but nothing chaps my ass more than the “It can’t be done” argument, especially when it has been done, many times over (and done by GM themselves, the Fiero had 3 pedals in the pedal box, and it wa s a smaller car... though built to different standards and requirements ).

GM probably won’t loose too much sleep over the 5 percent of people.

Everything I’ve seen suggests that it would likely be a lot more than 5% take rate if they offered a manual. The Mustang approaches 20% across it’s range, and it’s a far more pedestrian vehicle.

ITA97, now with more Jag @ opposite-lock.com > Milky 07/19/2019 at 14:47

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Well, they had a manual trans axle that bolted up to a torque tube and rear sub frame based around a transverse leaf spring. I’m going to guess the packaging to have one bolt up to rear on an engine, sit low enough to have a trunk above it, and bolt up to double- wishbone suspension would have little in common with that they had before.

Chariotoflove > Tripper 07/19/2019 at 14:49

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Your opinion and desire in a car are individual and completely valid. What I will say is that neither driving experience is inferior. I don’t think it’s reasonable to say an auto with paddles is not engaging when open wheel race cars have used them for so long, and those cars must certainly engage the driver. However, it lacks the hand and foot action of a manual, and that is a  different kind of engagement entirely. And if you need that in your sports car, no DCT, no matter how good, will make you happy. You are right to spend your money elsewhere.

ITA97, now with more Jag @ opposite-lock.com > His Stigness 07/19/2019 at 14:51

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I was gifted a Corvette Racing hat back when I had my twin to Capt. Dale’s car . Despite being for the racing team and not a regular “corvette” branded item, I could rarely bring myself to wear it while I owned the car, and never at the same time I drove the car. It just felt too much like a cliche. Now that I don’t own the car it is my favorite hat.

HondoyotaE38: A Japanese and German Collab...wait a minute > CobraJoe 07/19/2019 at 14:52

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Of course it can be done, but same with the Supra and the fans who say it’s not “real”; it’s still a damn good car and is just fine without it. Would I like to see a manual version? Of course. But the incessant bitching about it not having one is getting old. (I’m not saying you’re bitching or trying to offend you, I just mean in general. Nothing personal )

Discerning > Tripper 07/19/2019 at 14:57

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I miss having a manual and I was dead set determined that my next car would be a conventional manual.

But the thought of a PDK car had crossed my mind several times. I also wanted my fiance to be able to drive it and while she can drive a stick, she doesn’t want to.

I am ok with this car being DCT only. I am still very much seriously considering one, even if it means taking a bath on my over- priced truck and camper.

I would prefer a true manual, but I definitely get the appeal of a DCT.

Variance > Tripper 07/19/2019 at 15:00

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While I’m a “manual or die” kind of person, part of me thinks I’ve actually be more interested in the C8 if it had a traditional automatic instead of a DCT. Since it would probably be my daily, it would spend a decent amount of time at low speeds in traffic, which I’ve pretty much universally heard that DCT’s suck at.

CobraJoe > Tripper 07/19/2019 at 15:00

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I’m sort of with you. I went from curious about the C8 , to excited when I saw it revealed , to completely apathetic when I learned it was auto only, to outraged at GM when they claimed a manual couldn’t fit .

At least Toyota said they’d consider a manual in the Supra if the interest is there.

Tripper > Chariotoflove 07/19/2019 at 15:04

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I have no beef with flappy paddles on a race track. Flat out is really where they shine. Also, I could be engaged in an automatic corolla on a racetrack.

I think they are great for hard core driving/racing, great for the person that want’s a fully automatic 90% of the time, but numb for everything else.

In my S3 I always found myself like:  

“ok let me switch on the modes I like and get ready for some spirited driving. Bang through a few gears then I have to come to a stop...I just hit the brakes oh fuck I should have shifted down, what gear am I in? I step on the gas gear is too high or two low. I get back to where I want to be annnnnnd traffic.”

Safe areas for spirited driving are usually not long and having to fiddle with all of that crap before you even find out that the car is doing all the work takes too long. I’d rather those transmissions lock you into “manual” mode even, stall if you don’t shift down.

Tripper > Discerning 07/19/2019 at 15:05

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Yea I have said a bunch on this thread that the DSG in my S3 was phenomenal . The car was amazing, but it did all the work. Once the novelty wore off I sold it.

Tripper > Variance 07/19/2019 at 15:08

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Yea I just said to someone else that part of my gripe with the DSG in my S3 was that I had to dick around with it all the time to the point where I just found myself driving in full auto most of the time.

Milky > UserNotFound 07/19/2019 at 15:08

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Too much car for a manual

currently sells 750hp manual

Tripper > CobraJoe 07/19/2019 at 15:09

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I’m not mad at GM and I still like the car but my interest level went out the window.

Variance > Decay buys too many beaters 07/19/2019 at 15:09

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The center tunnel is a major structural component of the chassis, kind of like on a Lotus Esprit. They actually specifically talked about it in the press conference, and mentioned how having that structure in the middle of the car allowed them to avoid having the high and wide door sills that you see on many other mid-engined exotics.

DucST3-Red-1Liter-Standing-By > CobraJoe 07/19/2019 at 15:10

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All fair points, but they’ve got to move with the times or suffer the game fate as Harley. They have to plant the seeds of new Corvette fans now in order to have a hope in hell of selling any in 20 years. And those are kids right now growing up in the digital word who might not even have a transmission in their first car, let alone care how it’s worked.

Dont get me wrong, there will always be the small community of old school guys, but they can’t possibly hope to keep a company the size of Corvette afloat, again Harley as the  prime example

UserNotFound > Milky 07/19/2019 at 15:12

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Milky > UserNotFound 07/19/2019 at 15:14

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Your joke is literally written like other genuine comments ... pump that sarcasm up.  

UserNotFound > Milky 07/19/2019 at 15:16

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My joke is taking the OP’s list of things not to say and then saying them. It’s funny because I did what I oughtn’t’ve.

Variance > CobraJoe 07/19/2019 at 15:16

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The Fiero actually had kinda janky ergonomics, because the pedal box had to be offset to the right to clear the front wheel (an old co-worker of mine had an ‘86 GT that I drove a few times) . This was also the case on earlier Ferraris and the Lancia Stratos, where your legs end up cock-eyed to the right, and it’s not the most comfortable driving position in the world.

My Lotus doesn’t have a noticeably offset pedal box, but the trade-off is that the spacing between the pedals is MINISCULE. I wear a size 12, and have to wear specific shoes to be be able to drive that car; with some of my shoes, I will genuinely hit the gas and brake at the same time.

Given the Corvette’s typical audience, I doubt either of these things would fly. A mass-market vehicle needs to have mass-market sensibilities (t0 an extent, at least).

Milky > UserNotFound 07/19/2019 at 15:19

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Okay now I feel dumb ... scrolled past 50 other comments and forgot what OP said.

Variance > Tripper 07/19/2019 at 15:20

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Echoes my short experience in a Giulia, actually. It has the ZF 8-speed, and while a fantastic transmission, I actually found myself not wanting to use it in “manual mode”; the gearing in first (and second, to a lesser extent) was so short, that it felt like I had to be staring at the tach to be able to react quickly enough to not bounce off the rev-limiter.

CobraJoe > HondoyotaE38: A Japanese and German Collab...wait a minute 07/19/2019 at 15:29

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Still a damn good car? Sure, looks good and sounds like it was decently engineered. Just fine without it? I’m not so sure.

It just feels like they half-assed the engineering of the whole car because they didn’t bother to put in the option for a transmission that enthusiasts enjoy. Historically, that somewhat holds true: An “enthusiast ” car offered without the manual was often pretty boring to drive. ( The XLR, Prowler, and retro Thunderbird come to mind).

Granted, it’s not a rule that auto-only cars are boring (especially true with modern supercars considered) , just a fairly common occurance . (Plus, GM has a history of bungling launches of enthusiast cars, and then fixing their flaws right before killing the model)

As for “Not a corvette”, that’s a dumb phrase. Any car model that has survived past the first two generations has had to move with the times. Maybe the time is up for manuals in sports cars, but again, I’m not so sure that GM hasn’t made a mista ke with that choice.  

Milky > ITA97, now with more Jag @ opposite-lock.com 07/19/2019 at 15:32

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TBH packaging wise it looks damn similar.

UserNotFound > Milky 07/19/2019 at 15:33

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No worries pal

SPAMBot - Horse Doctor > Variance 07/19/2019 at 15:36

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Here is the inward shifted pedal box in my Ferrari (sorry about the bare feet). I typically drive barefoot because it is tight. The slashed pedals help a lot, though. GM could have figured something out, but I will agree it wouldn’t have been “perfect” like everything needs to be in new cars these days:

Legs extended straight out in front of me. Right leg on the brake, left leg on the dead pedal

Then I just pivot on my heel to operate the gas

CobraJoe > DucST3-Red-1Liter-Standing-By 07/19/2019 at 16:04

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All fair points, but they’ve got to move with the times or suffer the game fate as Harley.

What direction are “the times” headed now?

As far as I can tell for the future of sports cars , the market is splitting between “Fun on the street” and “Fast lap times on the track”. T he “street” cars are sacrificing racing gizmos and power for more driver engagement, and the “track” cars are more expensive and less suited for everyday use.

The C8 seems to have one foot in both camps. “We have a racing transmission! But barely more horsepower than a Mustang GT .” “Brembo Brakes! With all-season tires.” “It only costs $60k! But you’ll have to lift the nose over speed bumps.”

I guess we’ll see if the “livable race car” is a hit or not, but I’m not sold that GM knows what they’re doing yet.

Dont get me wrong, there will always be the small community of old school guys, but they can’t possibly hope to keep a company the size of Corvette afloat, again Harley as the prime example

The “manual sports car drivers” is a larger community than you think. 1/5th of all Mustangs and over half of BR-Zs are sold with manuals. It’s certainly conceivable that one of those owners would want to move up to something more capable with a manual.

ITA97, now with more Jag @ opposite-lock.com > Milky 07/19/2019 at 16:16

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Let’s look a little closer at what we’re seeing here:

On the C7/6/5, the basic order of operation goes clutch>torque tube>transmission>differential bolted the rear of the transmission. The axles are connecting at the rear of the assembly.

On the C8, axles connect in the middle of the transaxle assembly.

Going off what we see on the image ( and using how this solution is done on other mid-engine sports cars as a guide) , you’ve got power coming into the dual clutch assembly, to a long input shaft over the top of the differential to the transmission gear stack that is all the way at the rear of the assembly, and then an output shaft running power back forward to the differential that is in the middle of the assembly. To use power path on earlier vettes in a mid-engine car (and thus the 7-speed manual), you’d have the engine sitting in middle of the cabin to have enough room to make it work.

Here’s how Porsche solves this problem:

This not only makes the packaging work in the limited length available at the back of the car, but it keeps the heavy differential and half the gear stack nice and low for center of gravity. The other neat trick is that is lets you use the same basic hardware in either a mid or rear engine layout, depending of which way you have the drivetrain facing. Theoretically, GM could have a rear engine vette with the same basic drivetrain if they for some reason wanted to.

To have designed a manual box for the new C8, the only thing it would’ve had in common with the box from the C7 would be that the case would made out aluminum, and there would be some gears inside. Everything else would be very different.

CobraJoe > Variance 07/19/2019 at 16:16

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I know it probably wouldn’t be a perfect setup, but it is possible, and there are people who would be willing to accept the slight discomfort to drive the transmission they want.

His Stigness > ITA97, now with more Jag @ opposite-lock.com 07/19/2019 at 16:24

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Being self-aware can be a bitch sometimes.

Milky > ITA97, now with more Jag @ opposite-lock.com 07/19/2019 at 16:28

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Hey you’re right!  Porsche already figured out how to do this.  And like you’ve stated they’ve always had a 25% take rate still kept making them.  

Variance > CobraJoe 07/19/2019 at 16:59

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But the million-dollar question is, enough to justify the additional engineering and manufacturing costs? Probably not.

ITA97, now with more Jag @ opposite-lock.com > Milky 07/19/2019 at 17:01

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Of course Porsche has a modular factor going for it that isn’t there with the vette. They still designed two different transmissions (even if they do share some common parts), but that development cost is also going to support use in 3 different cars in two different drive line configurations . I’m going to guess that makes the math easier, along with a profit margin that GM could only dream about. Nobody is paying any kind of a badge premium for a GM car . Nobody has a problem doing if for a badge f rom Stuttgart.

Similarly, Porsche does a lot of what it does because it designs and/or uses modular platforms who’s development cost get amortized over many different models. Outside the 991 and 718, every other Porsche in the line up is underpinned by a chassis used across multiple VW group brands. There’d be no Porsche to do the fun stuff without them . I’m guessing GM does n’t have any other rear, or another mid-engine, car(s) in the pipeline to support developing multiple transmissions for.

And even Porsche has said there is an end coming for the manual. I think the overall 911 range manual take rate these days is something like 15%. The GT3 outcry a while back may have delayed the end a bit, but it is coming at some point.  

CobraJoe > Variance 07/19/2019 at 17:04

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Should be a simple question for the accountants to figure out. Is it worth spending $X for Y % more sales? They know the current sales numbers on the manual vette, the projected total sales, and manual take rate on several other models are public information.

Variance > CobraJoe 07/19/2019 at 17:08

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Which is why the C8 doesn’t have a manual. Somebody ran those numbers and decided it wasn’t worth it. Who knows, they may do an about-face and release a manual later if enough people ask for it , like BMW did with the E60 M5 and E63 M6 in the US, but it’s fairly unlikely.

DucST3-Red-1Liter-Standing-By > CobraJoe 07/19/2019 at 17:12

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The “Times” are manuals are drying, internal combustion engines are drying, there is no way to get around it. There is no was to stay in business catering to the tastes of small niche customer bases, ask Saab, MG, Harley in 10 years, Porsche in the 90s, MV agusta every time sales reports come out.

And no the manual crowd is not a large as you think, the are just a vocal, angry bunch. Ford for ~75,000 mustangs last year, which would mean 15,000 manual mustangs.

Ford also sold over 900,000 F series trucks, Toyota , close to half a million rav4's, Honda over 300,000 CR-Vs. There off by over a factor of 10!

I still can’t understand why the “manual or death” crowd thinks they know better than the companies that spend millions each year pouring over their sales numbers. The “Times” are changing and the C8 is perfect evidence, and the C9 will be even better evidence when it is inevitable electrified.

Hell, guys who drove in the 20s would say a 60s car isn’t involved enough because you don’t have to advance the timing yourself. At the end of the day there is always a group looking through rose tinted glasses, screaming that it was better before.

CobraJoe > Variance 07/19/2019 at 23:30

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That’s not the reason I’ve heard about why it doesn’t have a manual. The reason I’ve heard (as an outsider) is effectively “it can’t be done”.